Kwara State Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) chieftain and former Works Commissioner Afolabi Yunus told reporters in Lagos that the original members of the party are not part of the insurgency led by the factional national chairman, Alhaji Kawu Baraje. MUSA ODOSHIMOKHE of The Nation was there.

You are the former Principal Secretary to the former Acting National Chairman of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP), Alhaji Kawu Baraje, who is leading the splinter group, nPDP. Is the faction justifiable?

I am not one of the people supporting Baraje in the venture to divide the PDP with their self-styled nPDP, which has no place in Kwara State politics and Nigeria in general. As a result of that, I am not with him at all. We are not even happy that he can go to that length because we believe that, having been given the opportunity to serve as the National Secretary by Baba Saraki (may his gentle soul rest in peace), and had the opportunity of becoming the Acting National Chairman, he should remain loyal to the PDP and President Goodluck Jonathan. But with all these, Kawu Baraje still went ahead to sabotage the government, considering that he was also given the position of the Chairmanship of the Board of Nigerian Railway Corporation. I believe that it is in Baraje's character to betray the hands the feed him. Available records show that Bukola Saraki was even against Baraje taking that position. But he went ahead and took that appointment and, at the same time, he is now working against the same government that gave him that opportunity to serve.

Not only that. Back home, I know Kawu Baraje very well. I am his senior when we talk about politics because I had the opportunity of being a member of the defunct Constitutional Conference in 1994 and I even served under Bukola Saraki Administration in the first tenure. I was Commissioner for Works and Transport between 2003 and 2007, while Kawu Baraje was made Permanent Secretary under Saraki's government and this appointment was given to him by Baba Saraki because all forces were against Kawu Baraje as a civil servant then becoming Permanent Secretary. But Baba Saraki insisted that Kawu Baraje should be considered for that post. Having been given that post, he served as Permanent Secretary all through and thereafter, Baba Saraki still considered this same Kawu Baraje for the last Constitutional Conference in 2005. It was immediately after that that Baba still nominated this same Kawu Baraje for the position of the National Secretary, and it was when he got there that he started nursing the ambition of working against Baba Saraki's interest when he teamed up with Bukola to supplant Baba in Kwara politics.

What is wrong in Baraje's decision to back former Governor Saraki?

The general public will agree with me that the step Baraje took against Baba Saraki was an unfortunate step because, having had the opportunities from Baba, people expected him to advise Senator Bukola Saraki against taking steps against Baba Saraki. But he went ahead and gave Senator Bukola the support and ensured that they worked against Baba. So, as a result of this, I am seeing Kawu Baraje as a betrayer when you consider the fact that he betrayed his political mentor in Kwara State and now he has betrayed the President at the national level. Even, while he was in office, he had the opportunity of becoming the NAMA Chairman. All these are enough for him to have advised Bukola against the unfortunate step he took against Baba Saraki.

Don't you see any element of truth in what Baraje is fighting for now in the PDP?

There is no truth in what he is fighting. He is only being selfish and arrogant. In fact, I want to say he is just being parochial. He is narrow minded and that is why they are now just pursuing their own self-styled PDP. It is surprising to many people to hear Kawu Baraje calling himself the Chairman of the new PDP. What sort of new PDP? The original PDP is the only future for Nigeria. We don't recognise any new PDP or the self-styled version of PDP that they want to bring into place. There is no place for nPDP in Kwara and I know that it has no place in Nigeria. So, for that reason, any reasonable person will not join them because we know they are just buying time.

I want to even say that I know they have made up their mind about where they are going. Maybe they have another party in mind and they are just buying time with what they are doing. That is just my observation.

But the new PDP is in control of the government and the structure in Kwara. They produced the governor, the former governor and Kawu Baraje

The original PDP is still on ground in Kwara State and the PDP in Kwara State has no problem with anybody. People are still interested in the PDP. It is only the way Senator Bukola and his team are managing the affairs of the PDP, that is why some people want to criticise the PDP. But really, the original PDP is on ground in Kwara State and people are prepared to go with the PDP. Those that call themselves the new PDP in Kwara State, we don't know how they will define it. We don't know what they will tell us, whether they are a faction of PDP and that they want to have a say in the PDP. No. Majority of the people in Kwara State today are tired of the leadership of Bukola. Baraje even has no place politically.

You are saying that the loyalists of the mainstream PDP are still in Kwara now, despite the firm control by Bukola and the governor?

They are still intact. We are very many and people are just waiting for time to come when this self-styled PDP will move to where they belong because we believe strongly that they are not fit to be in PDP.

The belief is that the followers of original PDP or late Dr Olusola Saraki have moved to the ACPN, which he endorsed before he died

I want to say that before now, Baba Saraki directed everybody in Kwara State to remain in the PDP. So, the issue of the ACPN in Kwara State is not happening now. Even long before now, while Baba was alive, he directed that nobody should go to any other party, whether CPC or ACN. He said they should all remain in the PDP. Everybody returned to the PDP while Baba was still alive. As far as I'm concerned, Baba never asked us to go to any other party and that is why we remain within PDP.

But what of Senator Gbemi Saraki, who was fielded on the platform of the ACPN as the governorship candidate?

I want to tell you that, at that time, it was just a kind of arrangement that came up. We started everything. I was in the PDP too with Baba, but it got to a level that Bukola just said he wanted to hold on to the PDP and let other people go wherever they like. So, that led to the introduction of the ACPN, which was short-lived. But immediately after that election, everybody dropped whatever allegiance they had with the ACPN. It happened within the election period and, immediately after the election, we dropped the idea of anything ACPN. Baba Saraki instructed us to be in PDP and that's why all along, we have been in PDP. We are still card carrying members of the PDP.

Are you saying that all the supporters of Oloye Saraki are now back in the PDP?

All loyalists of Baba Saraki are in PDP. As I'm talking to you, I'm a card carrying member of PDP and I have my membership card with me. So we are still card carrying members of PDP.

You are supposed to know the National leader of nPDP, Kawu Baraje inside out, do you see him as somebody who fights for principles because what the new PDP is telling us is that they are fighting on the principle of liberating the party from a few persons?

Very far from that. They are the people that want to introduce a kind of selfishness into the PDP. They are not objective at all. When Baraje was even the National Secretary, the attributes of a good politician were never seen in him at all and efforts to advise him on that did not succeed. He would rather try to play his own parochial interest and have his way and when people come to see Baraje as the National Secretary, he would rather ask them to go and see the Special Assistant or the Principal Assistant. He was literally avoiding people and as a politician, you need not avoid people. You are supposed to listen to people and table solutions to whatever deplorable condition that is before you. But instead of that, Baraje would be avoiding people and as such, I don't see him as a serious politician. He is not fighting for the interests of the people and he is not fighting for the grassroots. Instead, he is pursuing his own selfish end and that's why I'm now saying that he's not fit to be in politics because if you are a politician, you must listen to the masses and table solutions to deplorable conditions before you.

What about Senator Bukola Saraki? You have worked with him; do you see him fighting for principles?

I have worked with Senator Bukola and I want to say that he too has not been working for the principle of the common man. Rather, Bukola will bring people from nowhere so that, at the end of the day, they will be responsible only to him. Bukola will not carry the indigenes of Kwara along. Many of us were just pushed aside by Bukola and he will go to Lagos, go to Kaduna, go to Kano, bring in those people that have nowhere to point to as their base.